In response to my "Bring it Atheists" article, Mark made the statement "The Bible says the Earth is flat." He used Daniel 4:11 as his reference. While I have heard many people make this claim before I have never heard anyone use this verse as a reference, so I was definitely intrigued.
It didn't take long at all for me to realize how faulty his argument was. If you simply read the verse before it you realize that someone is describing a dream.
Daniel 4: 10 (YLT) As to the visions of my head on my bed, I was looking, and lo, a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height [is] great: 11 become great hath the tree, yea, strong, and its height doth reach to the heavens, and its vision to the end of the whole land;
If you start at the beginning of the chapter, you'll realize the dream was that of a pagan king named Nebuchadnezzar.
How anyone can take a quote taken from a pagan king describing something he saw in a dream and use it to claim that the bible says the earth is flat is beyond me.
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Not only does the bible say the Earth is flat, it also says it can't be moved. Something moves it. Can you tell me what moves the Earth around the Sun? The Earth has pillars that hold it up? The Earth has a foundation? The Earth has edges? How can a sphere have edges? Sorry fundamentalists but it's foolish to take this stuff literally. Think about it, seriously!!!
"[T]he devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them"
(Matthew 4:1-12)
The visions of my head as I lay in bed were these: I saw, and behold, a tree in the midst of the earth; and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, and its top reached to heaven, and it was visible to the end of the whole earth. (Daniel 4:10-11)
"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (Psalm 104:5)"
"The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved. (Psalm 93:1)"
"The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. (Ecclesiastes 1:5)" (hint: The author of the Bible had no idea that the Earth rotates.)
"He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. (Job 9:6)"
"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. (Job 38:4)"
"...that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? (Job 38:13)"
"He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth. (Job 37:3)"
"...for he views the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. (Job 28:24)"
Hey John, are you alright? None of this rules out God in any way. I just wanted to demonstrate that scripture can't be taken literally. You can still believe. Peace be with you!
The Bible is literature and must be studied as literature.
John, Daniel himself says that this dream is a prophecy from God to Nebuchadnezzar. God is rather large, and way out of our boxes. Several times in the Bible he gives dreams/prophecies to heathens. Remember Pharaoh who was given dreams that prophecied 7 years of plenty followed by 7 years of famine?
Mark, the Bible is literature. Certainly, we evangelical Christians believe it to be God's message, but he gave it the form of literature. As such, all of the "rules" in understanding literature must be employed- basic grammar, looking at literary techniques, understanding figures of speech.
In this case, a figure of speech called a phenomenological statement is being employed. We use this all the time without thinking about it. It is simply stating things as they appear to be. So, we talk of the sun rising and setting, though it doesn't. "The end of the earth" is simply a statement, with somewhat of a hyperbole added in, of how things appear. It looks, with a horizon, that the earth has an end. This is not a scientific statment, nor should it be taken as such. There are statements which do have some scientific value. But they are rather obvious.
I really wish that churches would take time to instruct in Bible study methodolgy. Studying the Bible takes work and thought. And it is worthwhile.
Mark thanks for you list and Joe Mc thanks for you post. I apologize for not following up on these yet. I will try to get to it soon.
edge of the earth, not of the planet, the land mass, the coasts, where the water meets the edge of the earth.
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